Is the economy definitely doomed?

[duke nukem]

Not a tinfoil question but one based in reality, or at least hopefully more so.

Is there any conceivable way in which, with current heading and trends, our economy--and the middle class with it--doesn't die a painful death?

The way I see it, with rising inflation, population and a decrease in tangible goods manufactured that are actually worth something (not China junk), the value of money is going to go down (duh). More people, less money available (technically) that is still worth anything. Lack of high value goods in exchange for a larger amount of service related jobs and the economy doesn't grow on anything substantial. Like a diet of Captain Crunch.

With these basic ideas, the wealth goes in mostly one direction (up) where it pools, as it has been. A massive amount of the poor own small amounts of money, which is still a collectively large amount of money, just spaced out. With that the middle class either moves on up to the East side or is left destitute.

Not an all inclusive look but it paints a basic idea of what I see happening. A modern feudal system of sorts resulting. Is this true, or is there some way to avoid this? No, socialism is not the answer.

[UnderTheStars]

Like a diet of Captain Crunch.

Let's leave the Captain out of this.

[rokitman]

Not to mention the ever increasing government debt that will never be paid off. But of course it's the rich peoples fault. They steal from the poor and give to themselves. Tax them 90% and watch the ecomomy take off to new highs and productivity. That's what Bernie thinks!

[gamgee]

Yes, and no. Well, maybe.

[UnderTheStars]

Not a tinfoil question but one based in reality, or at least hopefully more so.

Is there any conceivable way in which, with current heading and trends, our economy--and the middle class with it--doesn't die a painful death?

The way I see it, with rising inflation, population and a decrease in tangible goods manufactured that are actually worth something (not China junk), the value of money is going to go down (duh). More people, less money available (technically) that is still worth anything. Lack of high value goods in exchange for a larger amount of service related jobs and the economy doesn't grow on anything substantial. Like a diet of Captain Crunch.

With these basic ideas, the wealth goes in mostly one direction (up) where it pools, as it has been. A massive amount of the poor own small amounts of money, which is still a collectively large amount of money, just spaced out. With that the middle class either moves on up to the East side or is left destitute.

Not an all inclusive look but it paints a basic idea of what I see happening. A modern feudal system of sorts resulting. Is this true, or is there some way to avoid this? No, socialism is not the answer.

We've transitioned to more of an oligarchy, where corporations are given preferential treatment. Corporatism + oligarchy = Corporigarchy?

Whatever we are now, it's not sustainable. The money continues to flow only upward. The large amount of goods produced for our consumers are manufactured out of country. We have been trained to shop for the lowest-priced goods, without regard for the way they are produced, or how the export of jobs has impacted our country.

How to fix it?

Corporations need to pay taxes just like you and me. I pay in the 20%+ range. These companies did not.

There's a welfare problem in this country, for sure. Stop corporate welfare.






- Stop buying crap. We buy too much crap. Think about where that product was made, how the worker was treated. There are people in other countries dying so that we can wear cheap jeans and underwear. We are buying, on average, 500% more clothes than we did in the '90's. Why? Because it's cheap. Because teens especially are trained to buy what's new and hot RIGHT NOW. I had four pair of jeans through high school that I wore in rotation. Two of them were hand-me-downs from my older sisters.

- One of our biggest export for years has been jobs. Look for products made in our country, by U.S. workers.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...rica/index.htm

I remember my mother being really pissed in the early '80's, saying "They're trying to get rid of the middle class!". She was right.

[Talon]

The economy is changing. There simply isn't enough "work" to go around, and jobs ain't coming back. Our governments have their heads in the sand on this issue because it's simply too complex and wrenching to deal with. I guess the easiest way to explain it is, the rich will stay rich, the poor will stay poor and the middle will slowly disappear into one or the other.

[Tactical Knightmare]

Not to mention the ever increasing government debt that will never be paid off. But of course it's the rich peoples fault. They steal from the poor and give to themselves. Tax them 90% and watch the ecomomy take off to new highs and productivity. That's what Bernie thinks!

Not at all, but I understand what Duke is getting at.

Inflation is rising along with cost of living while wages remain stagnant, which means the middle class have a better chance of becoming poor than becoming wealthy and the poor have a better guarantee of remaining poor regardless of hard work and effort.

We are a consumer nation and as a result of trying to keep up with the Jones's have outsourced all our manufacturing job to other countries in order to be able to purchase more items we dont need at lower costs since there isnt much money flowing due to the fact that we outsourced the jobs. Its a endless cycle.

[duke nukem]

I feel as though as humans we don't view ourselves as bound by the laws of nature, when in fact the economy is very much an organic thing.

Also with population, people seem to think a decrease in population is a bad thing, that it can only go up. Maybe to support unsustainable pension and tax programs, but it is a dangerous way of thinking. That coupled with the increase of immigrants to offset the lowered native birthrate and your problem is compounded.

Likewise with the GDP, it's as though having any contraction at any point is the end of the world. It's literally impossible for the economy to go up and up forever. At some point you'll reach a peak, due to a decrease in resources, population, whatever. Obviously constant decline is bad, but if the population were decreased then it stand to reason the amount produced could decrease as well without negative effects.


Long story short, less people and more technology is the only way I can see us maintaining our comfortable lifestyles. Otherwise we'll be like Pendar in his 200sqft Calcutta apartment he and his 5 roommates share. At least there's no toilet to clog with the curry runs, just open a window and let it loose.

[Jenn]

I remember my mother being really pissed in the early '80's, saying "They're trying to get rid of the middle class!". She was right.

You're cool. I like you.

[UnderTheStars]

You're cool. I like you.

Thanks Jenn. You too.

[Night]

Middle class was fun -- I vaguely remember it


As if zero interest rates weren't bad enough, now there's talk of negative interest rates

[duke nukem]

Middle class was fun -- I vaguely remember it


As if zero interest rates weren't bad enough, now there's talk of negative interest rates

More proof that you really don't own your money. Basically force people to put their money in the stock market where it's easy pickings for those at the top.

[Night]

More proof that you really don't own your money. Basically force people to put their money in the stock market where it's easy pickings for those at the top.

Fuck that shit. I've lost half of my money twice now, I ain't doing that again. I'll bury it

[Harry Henderson]

Consumerism is a drug. All three classes compete to feed their addiction of disposable and trendy commodities. The poor go broke and the rich are taxed to support them. The middle class work for the rich to make goods for the rich and poor. The system is impossible to break without one class breaking the addiction.

If the rich did not buy needless items, if the poor spent their last dime wisely, or if the middle class built quality products that would last, the system would reset.

The economy is not doomed, it merely structures around those who hold the production lines. You will always have someone in the middle wanting to be rich to buy fancier things, a poor man needing a job to buy more junk, and the rich man wanting to buy over-priced needless things for one reason or another.

The American way of life is doomed though, mostly because very few people invest back into it, now that the consumer market knows that short lived and cheaply made commodities is the drug of choice.

[mattmuttsmith]

Yes. There is no way the debt and liabilities can be paid off without us doing what needs to be done. And we will not do what needs to be done.