Philosophy

[gamgee]

Do turkeys have free will?

[swampbilly]

only if they where born free

[UnderTheStars]

What is free will if confined to a cage? One could argue that there is a microcosm of free will, in that they can still breathe, they can still eat, they can still squawk. The lucky few have room to walk around. But it extends out only so far, then the reality of their imprisoned life becomes apparent through the veil.

But then, can we not say the same for ourselves?

Respectfully submitted,
Undie-Paul Sartre

[swampbilly]

Every spring we release 6 or so turkeys out back.
Danged if the ones who survive don't come around for the free meals.
Sometimes they bring along other "wild turkeys" with them.

[gamgee]

What is free will if confined to a cage? One could argue that there is a microcosm of free will, in that they can still breathe, they can still eat, they can still squawk. The lucky few have room to walk around. But it extends out only so far, then the reality of their imprisoned life becomes apparent through the veil.

But then, can we not say the same for ourselves?

Respectfully submitted,
Undie-Paul Sartre

Freedom of will is not to be confused with freedom of action. Free will exists in the mind, as part of our consciousness. The question then remains, do turkeys possess a level of consciousness sufficient to contain free will. Or rather, do they possess a level of free will compatible with their level of consciousness.

[UnderTheStars]

Freedom of will is not to be confused with freedom of action. Free will exists in the mind, as part of our consciousness. The question then remains, do turkeys possess a level of consciousness sufficient to contain free will. Or rather, do they possess a level of free will compatible with their level of consciousness.

Oh, in that case, no.

They're dumb as a box of rocks.

[Mayaca]

Do turkeys have free will?

Persimmon.



When you understand, then you will know.

[rokitman]

What is free will if confined to a cage? One could argue that there is a microcosm of free will, in that they can still breathe, they can still eat, they can still squawk. The lucky few have room to walk around. But it extends out only so far, then the reality of their imprisoned life becomes apparent through the veil.

But then, can we not say the same for ourselves?

Respectfully submitted,
Undie-Paul Sartre

People with free will who choose to do what it takes to be imprisoned is not the same as farm turkeys who are raised imprisoned

[rokitman]

Freedom of will is not to be confused with freedom of action. Free will exists in the mind, as part of our consciousness. The question then remains, do turkeys possess a level of consciousness sufficient to contain free will. Or rather, do they possess a level of free will compatible with their level of consciousness.

I know a lot of people who have the equivalent level of consciousness ( ability to reason) as turkeys. Most are on welfare!

[UnderTheStars]

People with free will who choose to do what it takes to be imprisoned is not the same as farm turkeys who are raised imprisoned

I guess it depends on your definition of 'imprisoned' and 'free will'.

On a larger scale, we are imprisoned by underlying factors such as guilt, laws, judgement, internal conflicts, morality.. So the concept of free will could be seen as merely an illusion.

If you truly had free will, what would you do? Maybe go hunting at night or off-season when it's illegal to do so... Have a stripper over to provide halftime entertainment during the Sunday game... But we are bound (imprisoned, so to speak) by other forces that keep us from doing things that we or others might find wrong, offensive, illegal.

Maybe sociopaths are the only ones with free will. They live in a world where there is no guilt, judgement, laws that apply to their behavior or actions.

The rest of us live in a conflicted world where what we may want to do and what we actually do are at odds, and the higher road usually prevails.

[gamgee]

I guess it depends on your definition of 'imprisoned' and 'free will'.

On a larger scale, we are imprisoned by underlying factors such as guilt, laws, judgement, internal conflicts, morality.. So the concept of free will could be seen as merely an illusion.

If you truly had free will, what would you do? Maybe go hunting at night or off-season when it's illegal to do so... Have a stripper over to provide halftime entertainment during the Sunday game... But we are bound (imprisoned, so to speak) by other forces that keep us from doing things that we or others might find wrong, offensive, illegal.

Maybe sociopaths are the only ones with free will. They live in a world where there is no guilt, judgement, laws that apply to their behavior or actions.

The rest of us live in a conflicted world where what we may want to do and what we actually do are at odds, and the higher road usually prevails.

I don't see this as proof that free will doesn't exist, but rather that we have the ability to reason through our choices.
Many choose to allow others to do their reasoning for them. That is their choice. It does not mean that the choice doesn't exist.

[UnderTheStars]

I don't see this as proof that free will doesn't exist, but rather that we have the ability to reason through our choices.
Many choose to allow others to do their reasoning for them. That is their choice. It does not mean that the choice doesn't exist.

"The ability to reason through our choices". What would that look like?

Say I want to go to a parking lot in town to do some target practice. I like the fact that it's an open space. It's empty. But I don't, because...

• It's illegal
• My neighbors would think I was nuts
• I'd scare the locals
• etc.. etc..

So I took a concept of wanting to do something (of my own free will) and applied the outer forces of laws, morality, judgement, guilt, etc.. Those things turned an "I'd like to..." into a "I shouldn't" or "I can't".

Maybe I over-think things, but to me free will is a bit of an illusion. We more live in a matrix of society's expectations and are conditioned by our own past, which governs over our true free will.

[gamgee]

"The ability to reason through our choices". What would that look like?

Say I want to go to a parking lot in town to do some target practice. I like the fact that it's an open space. It's empty. But I don't, because...

• It's illegal
• My neighbors would think I was nuts
• I'd scare the locals
• etc.. etc..

So I took a concept of wanting to do something (of my own free will) and applied the outer forces of laws, morality, judgement, guilt, etc.. Those things turned an "I'd like to..." into a "I shouldn't" or "I can't".

Maybe I over-think things, but to me free will is a bit of an illusion. We more live in a matrix of society's expectations and are conditioned by our own past, which governs over our true free will.

But you could have chosen to go shooting. You chose to consider the consequences. Those consequences aren't an illusion, and neither is the choice.

The other day, I was driving behind someone. We were approaching an area where our single lane became two; one lane to turn left, one to go straight. The oncoming lane, and the double yellow line remained the same. The driver in front of me chose to move to the right, for that short distance, I assumed because the government painted a line. But that was his choice. I chose to maintain the direction I was traveling, straddling the white line separating the two lanes. It was a choice. I wasn't programmed to do that. I thought about it and said to myself, "It doesn't make any sense to swerve to the right because of a line".

[swampbilly]

so what I'm getting here is that turkeys are existing in a matrix..........

and squirels don't give a fuck about foozeball games

[Mayaca]

"The ability to reason through our choices". What would that look like?

Say I want to go to a parking lot in town to do some target practice. I like the fact that it's an open space. It's empty. But I don't, because...

• It's illegal
• My neighbors would think I was nuts
• I'd scare the locals
• etc.. etc..

So I took a concept of wanting to do something (of my own free will) and applied the outer forces of laws, morality, judgement, guilt, etc.. Those things turned an "I'd like to..." into a "I shouldn't" or "I can't".

Maybe I over-think things, but to me free will is a bit of an illusion. We more live in a matrix of society's expectations and are conditioned by our own past, which governs over our true free will.

I just went shooting in a parking lot. I am very suggestable. I will tell my lawyer to shift blame your way. Nice idea.