Robots in the Workplace

[Tactical Knightmare]

http://www.investors.com/politics/ed...n-restaurants/

Good article and a good debate topic.

So the CEO of Carls Jr's is planning to automate many of their restaurants to keep employee costs down due to the rising min wage.


"Is he being heartless? No. Just responding to the government’s foolish plans to jack up the minimum wage and put restaurants, hotels, bars and other service industries out of business. “With government driving up the cost of labor, it’s driving down the number of jobs,” said Puzder. “You’re going to see automation not just in airports and grocery stores, but in restaurants.”


I saw this happening years ago. Now before anyone gets upset that the min wage people will have no more jobs, keep in mind that automation is already the norm in the majority of all factory jobs. Take a auto plant for instance, majority of the work is done by robots who only need a couple techs to oversee and maintain them and the programs. What is the difference between taking automation down to a job with a lower level of pay, to achieve cheaper costs?

At the end of the day...what is more dangerous? A low stagnant minimum wage OR a weak dollar?
( At the moment both are applicable, which is the worst of the worst)


For instance 4 $ buck an hour isnt that bad when 4 bucks can actually buy you something because your $ is strong and solid.

Discuss/

[Tactical Knightmare]

Can someone move this tho the tech beep beep boop boop dont disassemble me section?

[Absolutely!]

I think this is spin. When you look at how those places run, staff costs are a minimum factor in it, and the shareholders take home a ton of profit. I think you robotise when you have the money to, when your benefits outweigh your costs. Yes, an increase in minimum wage makes that payback period for the robot shorter - but over here we're able to order our macdonalds or whatever on a screen anyway. That's one human in a whole shop removed. That's arguing the toss over whether the computer saves $7 an hour.

I think minimum wage has to be a liveable wage, otherwise you're in a third world country, and I think the US, like New Zealand, has slowly taken hit after hit in living standards for the many low income earners, that the normal people aren't even aware of. I work with people on two incomes mostly, and I'm on one: people on 2 incomes who started out in the eighties or nineties have no idea what it's like now to be starting out, or on one income. It's a horror. Add children into that mix and it's just not doable.

I think a minimum wage for you guys, if it is to increase, needs probably to increase at a dollar a year for a while, because businesses need to adjust without going under; but they do need to adjust. Those fast food restaurants are sucking the life and soul out of their employees and absolutely raking in the profits.

And this should have a trickle-up effect, whereby if you want to attract someone better than minimum wage, or ask for more difficult tasks, you will have to increase your offer.

[Tactical Knightmare]

I think this is spin. When you look at how those places run, staff costs are a minimum factor in it, and the shareholders take home a ton of profit. I think you robotise when you have the money to, when your benefits outweigh your costs. Yes, an increase in minimum wage makes that payback period for the robot shorter - but over here we're able to order our macdonalds or whatever on a screen anyway. That's one human in a whole shop removed. That's arguing the toss over whether the computer saves $7 an hour.

I think minimum wage has to be a liveable wage, otherwise you're in a third world country, and I think the US, like New Zealand, has slowly taken hit after hit in living standards for the many low income earners, that the normal people aren't even aware of. I work with people on two incomes mostly, and I'm on one: people on 2 incomes who started out in the eighties or nineties have no idea what it's like now to be starting out, or on one income. It's a horror. Add children into that mix and it's just not doable.

I think a minimum wage for you guys, if it is to increase, needs probably to increase at a dollar a year for a while, because businesses need to adjust without going under; but they do need to adjust. Those fast food restaurants are sucking the life and soul out of their employees and absolutely raking in the profits.

And this should have a trickle-up effect, whereby if you want to attract someone better than minimum wage, or ask for more difficult tasks, you will have to increase your offer.

I dont think it is spin but rather reality.

1)One computer is one person without a job. If that persons wage is 7/$ the company actually saves around 10-11/$ rather than 7. Reasoning is that they don have to worry about training, management, bennies, sick days, taxes etc on the employee. Let alone no turn over, no overtime, etc.

Still leaves one person without a job and those that will build the computer will be most likely a foreign factory.

2) Minimum wage should be liveable, substandard but liveable, but at the same time, when a wage is unlivable..is that a reflection more so of the wage itself, or what the strength of the Dollar being used to pay that wage is worth? Which is why I mentioned that if the min wage was 4$ but the Dollar being used is worth 3x's as much. That person is doing better than a person making 10$ with a dollar worth only a dollar.

3) Most of those that work min wages are on state/ federal support. They have to be, so in essence the tax payers are subsidizing the wage with their taxes.





Lets compare for instance McDonalds to In and Out.

a)McDonalds pays min wage, long hours, lots of employee issues, huge menu, lots of turn over. It is a dead end job, with terrible service and dead eyed people fighting for 15/hour. It is a franchise and on the Stock Market.

b)In-andOut, pays 1 1/3 times min wage to start, long hours, small menu ( you have a choice of 1 of 3 burgers and a soft drink or shake, they are privately owned, minimal employee issues. Great service and the company takes care of its employees. Not a dead end job also not on the stock market. It is a private company and not publicly traded.


The average Mc Donalds Employee is over 30 with a high school or less education. Managers make around 60k/year.
The average In and Out employee is a college student in thier early 20's. Managers make around 115k/year.

One job people are attempting to make a career out of.
For the other it is a job to get them through school to go get a career.

Which is the better business model?

[Absolutely!]

I've got a couple of replies but I've only had 1 coffee this morning so let's see how much sense I can make:

1. when you buy the computer you don't save the guys' wages, I didn't intend to make that come across. you save the difference between his wages and what he would have cost. It's an opportunity cost thing: we were going to have to pay him $15, so if we go one way it's $15 an hour and if we go another way it's an up-front cost of $20,000 or whatever. Let's apportion that cost over the life of the hardware/ software, versus the $15.00 per hour which will continue and always be able to fit the situation (ie does not become obsolete at any point). So the $7 I was talking about was the diff between the guy's wages now ,and his wages later.

I actually think that when you look at it, the computer option probably comes out more expensive, with service contracts, down time, crashes, upgrade requirements etc etc. Computers are actually very high maintenance and depreciate at a killer rate. They're the worst asset you can buy apart from maybe an i-phone.

1a. From what I'm seeing, people at macdonalds are kept on part time contracts, so that no health benefits, sick leave, holidays or anything like that are payable. I would not put it past mackas to make them pay for uniforms, but even if Mackas pay for uniforms, it's not a huge cost for that one person.

2. Minimum wage as an issue of strength of dollar:
No. Sorry, that's where my politics come in. No. Minimum wage is not an issue of international purchase price of a piece of paper. Minimum wage is an issue of roofs over heads, food in mouths. Minimum wage is not an economic issue. It's a moral issue.

You can make it an economic issue when you consider what happens if you starve your population. Remembering, of course, that at the top of your pyramid you have people who could feed the nation on what they gain in interest on their investments in a month.
If you make the world bad enough for the bottom of the pyramid they do crazy stupid things like vote in hitler (oops i mean trump) because he offers them a sensation of being heard (eg the way he acts like an 8 yr old picking on girls in the playground, that's to bond with the loser white trash.) When they have done this, social order gets flipped. You guys are cruising, economically and literally, for a bruising.

In Holland in the 1600s the people rose up and killed and ate their prime minister. Just remember that. Remember the french revolution, the russian revolution, the chinese revolution. It's not good common sense to put that many badly educated people in a position of having nothing left to lose.

[Unclefred]

Arby's, Wendy's and other franchise restaurants are heading in the robot direction. Reducing staff and staff hours.

Restaraunts make on average $84,000 in sales per worker. Grocers and gas stations average $304,000 and $855,000 prr worker. You can see that automating fast franchises will increase their competiveness.

raising the wages by goverment fiat lowers the competetiveness.

One wonders too, where teens will work as the rising wage will attract more adult workers to fast food places, displacing them.

http://m.nrn.com/blog/restaurants-need-improve-labor-productivity

[Tactical Knightmare]

But the strength of the dollar, DOES decide what a min wage is really worth in real time of labor vs pay.

Main problem is that I see with min wage hikes is that there is no mandated trickle up effect for others. Ie if I am at a job making 14/hour and min wage goes up from 8 to 10. I still am at 14. not 16. It actually brings the other related wages down.

The bottom feeders of the poor ( rent est, is then increased also as a average) costs also go up ever so slightly also, eventually not only negating the wage increase, but again, for the person making slightly above min wage..they have taken a decrease at the end of the day as compared to what their dollar is worth vs what they are paid for thier job.

[Absolutely!]

But the strength of the dollar, DOES decide what a min wage is really worth in real time of labor vs pay.

Main problem is that I see with min wage hikes is that there is no mandated trickle up effect for others. Ie if I am at a job making 14/hour and min wage goes up from 8 to 10. I still am at 14. not 16. It actually brings the other related wages down.

Firstly, my understanding of 'the strength of the dollar' is that it's an international trade term. If you take it to mean purchasing power within the nation, then I agree with you, how much you can buy with your wages is clearly the absolute point of it. I just believe that 'strength of the dollar' is actually not what that means. I could easily be very wrong.

But in any case I put it to you that that minimum wage has no effect on that $14 earner, other than his envy and jealousy which are personal vices, not actual economic purchasing units. If he isn't happy with what he's getting, he should look around for a better paying job. And as companies want better employees here and there, they will offer more money for them here or there. That will always happen.

And so it will have the effect of trickling up. It does. it's slow though. A huge minimum wage hike I think is a bad thing. It has to be slow, gentle, incremental. The whole thing has to happen over a period of time I feel.

I recently heard that there's not even legislation about paid annual leave in America. Is this true? How much paid annual leave do you get? How many paid sick days? How many paid statutory holidays? If you work on a statutory holiday, do you get time and a half, and a day in lieu?

[Tactical Knightmare]

Firstly, my understanding of 'the strength of the dollar' is that it's an international trade term. If you take it to mean purchasing power within the nation, then I agree with you, how much you can buy with your wages is clearly the absolute point of it. I just believe that 'strength of the dollar' is actually not what that means. I could easily be very wrong.

But in any case I put it to you that that minimum wage has no effect on that $14 earner, other than his envy and jealousy which are personal vices, not actual economic purchasing units. If he isn't happy with what he's getting, he should look around for a better paying job. And as companies want better employees here and there, they will offer more money for them here or there. That will always happen.

And so it will have the effect of trickling up. It does. it's slow though. A huge minimum wage hike I think is a bad thing. It has to be slow, gentle, incremental. The whole thing has to happen over a period of time I feel.

I recently heard that there's not even legislation about paid annual leave in America. Is this true? How much paid annual leave do you get? How many paid sick days? How many paid statutory holidays? If you work on a statutory holiday, do you get time and a half, and a day in lieu?

"But in any case I put it to you that that minimum wage has no effect on that $14 earner, other than his envy and jealousy which are personal vices, not actual economic purchasing units. If he isn't happy with what he's getting, he should look around for a better paying job."

^^^^^And that my dear is my argument with those that want a higher min wage ! ^^^^^^^^ Find a better job !

"I recently heard that there's not even legislation about paid annual leave in America. Is this true? How much paid annual leave do you get? How many paid sick days? How many paid statutory holidays? If you work on a statutory holiday, do you get time and a half, and a day in lieu?"

I dont know, my work takes good care of me so it has never been an issue. Not sure what is mandatory or what is not. What I do know is that the small place I work has a fridge full of beer and I do what ever I want, when ever I want to do it. ( Then again I make them a ton of money also)

[Talon]

I'm from the school of thought that we should automate EVERYTHING that can possibly be automated and institute a "basic income." It's heading this way already, our society just isn't accepting it. There is only so much "work" that needs to be done.

One of our biggest issues is that we've tied the job into a persons worth and self worth. We need to cut that "protestant work ethic" umbilical cord and look towards the future.

[Absolutely!]

"But in any case I put it to you that that minimum wage has no effect on that $14 earner, other than his envy and jealousy which are personal vices, not actual economic purchasing units. If he isn't happy with what he's getting, he should look around for a better paying job."

^^^^^And that my dear is my argument with those that want a higher min wage ! ^^^^^^^^ Find a better job !

"I recently heard that there's not even legislation about paid annual leave in America. Is this true? How much paid annual leave do you get? How many paid sick days? How many paid statutory holidays? If you work on a statutory holiday, do you get time and a half, and a day in lieu?"

I dont know, my work takes good care of me so it has never been an issue. Not sure what is mandatory or what is not. What I do know is that the small place I work has a fridge full of beer and I do what ever I want, when ever I want to do it. ( Then again I make them a ton of money also)

2 things:

1. You think that the little guy can just switch jobs. He can't. That's why legislation has to step in. He has no bargaining power. The minimum wage is the baseline for the bottom of the heap. The whole point of the legislation is to step in and speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.

People further up the heap have things like skills and dependability that they can use to negotiate with. They can say 'why would I do this for you, for only this much extra?' They can discuss and negotiate. They can say things like 'pay peanuts, get monkeys.' But they can only say this from a position of already getting enough to live on. Whether you can survive on your income or not should depend on whether you work a full week or not: if you work a full week, your pay should cover survival.

2. I'm sorry: you need to know your own legislation. It's no good saying 'The entire nation should carry on with x, because I, personally, in my job, haven't noticed whether I get stuff or not from my employer.' You need to know your contract, you need to know your legislation.

In NZ:

Legislation says 5 days sick leave, accruable to 20 days. My contract is 10 days sick leave, accruable to 60 days.
20 days annual leave
Bereavement leave: up to 3 days per immediate family member, 1 day for non-immediate family member.
Parental leave: paid by the government, 16 weeks.

if I work on a statutory holiday I am paid time and a half, and get a day's leave in lieu.

Our minimum wage, given the exchange rate, is close to your minimum wage. It's not much. I am on far more than the minimum wage, and I barely get by. My son is very close to minimum wage: and he just gets through the weeks working 50 hr weeks. We have to ask ourselves what standard of living we fought for. Or at least, in New Zealand, fought for. The 40 hr week: we fought for that. And now it's been eroded. You can't have a 40 hr week if 40 hrs' pay doesn't feed you.

[Tactical Knightmare]

I'm from the school of thought that we should automate EVERYTHING that can possibly be automated and institute a "basic income." It's heading this way already, our society just isn't accepting it. There is only so much "work" that needs to be done.

One of our biggest issues is that we've tied the job into a persons worth and self worth. We need to cut that "protestant work ethic" umbilical cord and look towards the future.

Whats wrong with the protestant work ethic.?

Whats wrong with work ethics?

Then again, work ethics are on a major slip now a days anyways.

[Tactical Knightmare]

2 things:

1. You think that the little guy can just switch jobs. He can't. That's why legislation has to step in. He has no bargaining power. The minimum wage is the baseline for the bottom of the heap. The whole point of the legislation is to step in and speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.

People further up the heap have things like skills and dependability that they can use to negotiate with. They can say 'why would I do this for you, for only this much extra?' They can discuss and negotiate. They can say things like 'pay peanuts, get monkeys.' But they can only say this from a position of already getting enough to live on. Whether you can survive on your income or not should depend on whether you work a full week or not: if you work a full week, your pay should cover survival.

2. I'm sorry: you need to know your own legislation. It's no good saying 'The entire nation should carry on with x, because I, personally, in my job, haven't noticed whether I get stuff or not from my employer.' You need to know your contract, you need to know your legislation.

In NZ:

Legislation says 5 days sick leave, accruable to 20 days. My contract is 10 days sick leave, accruable to 60 days.
20 days annual leave
Bereavement leave: up to 3 days per immediate family member, 1 day for non-immediate family member.
Parental leave: paid by the government, 16 weeks.

if I work on a statutory holiday I am paid time and a half, and get a day's leave in lieu.

Our minimum wage, given the exchange rate, is close to your minimum wage. It's not much. I am on far more than the minimum wage, and I barely get by. My son is very close to minimum wage: and he just gets through the weeks working 50 hr weeks. We have to ask ourselves what standard of living we fought for. Or at least, in New Zealand, fought for. The 40 hr week: we fought for that. And now it's been eroded. You can't have a 40 hr week if 40 hrs' pay doesn't feed you.

1) How is the guy making 14 the big guy compared to the min wage guy who went from 8 to 10? How does the 2 dollar decrease in pay of the 14 guy over min, ok and no big deal? Its still a decrease in pay. I dont argue about min wage covering bare survival. Bare survival doesnt mean you own a flat screen, 100$ shoes and have the newest iphone. It means survival. But people dont know much of that anymore, they live outside their means and wonder why they are broke.

2) In my job it doesnt matter, we have state and federal guidelines, each is different. Min Ca wage is 10, Fed is 7.25, CA is 3 days sick leave, accruable to to 10 days ( I think). ...16weeks for maternity paid by state. 1 week vacation after one year, vacation days accrued. ( Union is a different gig) Some companies max out, some dont, some you can cash your time in, other you cant. My situation is different than others, then again I sacrificed alot to get where I am today and I started off at about min wage.

Most retailers use the 39hr parttime work schedule so they dont pay overtime or have to offer bennies. Walmart, Homer Depot, Lowes, ( big box non union places) and yet....people love to those at those shit holes. It is why I dont work there, its why I decided to go to a small privately owned company.

I still have the choice to work where I want to, Almost everybody has the ability to change jobs, even if that means coming in at a entry level at a new place for a short term loss but a long term gain. That is what I did.

[Talon]

Nothing wrong with work ethic, but a whole lot of it is relative.

The problem is that it's been turned on us. In other words, the uber rich tell the working proles that working hard long hours is how you get a seat at the cocktail parties with them. When I think most people over 30 have figured out that it's quite the opposite.

I bought all that hook line and sinker when I was young. I'd go to a job and bust my ass only to be rewarded with MORE WORK.

[Tactical Knightmare]

So someone I know works at Walmart in a dead end job. They were hired years ago at min wage.

Min wag was 8, but he worked the night crew with pulled another 1, so 9. So 1st year, 1 dollar higher than min wage. 9/hr

Next year the min wage went up to 9, he received a wage increase of 50 cents plus, night crew now pull a additional 80 cents. So 2d year 1.30 cent over min wage. 10.30/hr w/ min wage at 9.

Next year he got a 1$ wage increase, night crew now a additional 25 cents, min wage went up to 10$ now. So now 10$ min wage and he makes..... 10.25/hr after being with the company for 3 years. 25 cents more than min wage.

3 years of a person trying to get out of min wage and they are only 25 cents/ hour better then the person hired yesterday.